From New York Times, I'm Michael Bobarrow. This is the daily.

Of all the seismic changes that President Trump has made in his second term, perhaps the most overlooked and consequential, is the speed with which he has upended 60 years of civil

rights, much of it under the guise of attacking DEI. Today, Nicole Hannah-Jones, on the end

of an era and the growing fear of what a post-civil rights government will mean

for black Americans. It's Tuesday, October 21st. Nicole, before we get started, I want to reestablish your background for listeners who maybe

haven't heard you on the show in a little bit. You are, I would argue, the preeminent authority

on the subject of race and civil rights in this country, not just, I would say, at the New York

Times, but in American journalism.

You're the creator of the 1619 project for which you won a Pulitzer Prize in commentary.

And so when we learned that you were looking into the Trump administration's big moves around

DEI, that's their description of this, we were very eager to have this conversation with you.

So thank you for making time for us.

Well, maybe I would quibble with the preeminent expert, but thank you for having me on.

And here, I want to begin with an admission on our part.

We had been trying to wrap our arms around these decisions that the Trump administration

was making when it comes to DEI for quite some time.

Because I think it's fair to say it was easy to see the big moves they were making and how

wide-ranging this effort was to root out anything,

even mentioning the words, diversity, equity, and inclusion.

But it was harder to understand what all of it was driving at,

what this larger framework was that this fit into.

But that's exactly as it happens what you were trying to do. So where did your

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